A Defense Of Brian Kelly As Notre Dame Coach For Anyone Who Thinks This Is Somehow A Bad Hire
Brian Kelly is the new head coach at Notre Dame, and by nearly every objective, reasonable standard, it's a fantastic hire. Notre Dame went out and got the single best coach available, a guy that has one losing season in nearly two decades of coaching (his first year at an awful Central Michigan program) and who has gone 34-6 in three years at Cincinnati. I'm not sure how many teams have gone to a BCS bowl, let alone undefeated, after losing ten starters on one side of the ball, but that's what Kelly did with an entirely new defense this season. He puts his offense together with popsicle sticks, duct tape and back-up quarterbacks and it doesn't miss a beat. He's a great college football coach who wins college football games, which seems so simple yet isn't something Notre Dame has had lately. A Brian Kelly failure would be odd and unexpected, as it would mean he suddenly was no longer good at a craft he'd been perfecting for twenty years.
Even before Brian Kelly was hired, there were elements of the Irish fan base who somehow thought this was a terrible choice, someone unworthy of coming to coach in South Bend. This is a fringe element of the Notre Dame family and wouldn't be worth addressing save for the fact they populate (and run) perhaps the best known Irish gathering place online. They've taken the last two weeks to spout conspiracy theories, gnash teeth and wail about the failure of the program and school they once loved. It was a weird echo chamber of pathos and loathing that was akin to visiting a freak show at the circus. Because their histrionics are an embarrassing mark for every other sensible Irish fan and they have a loud enough voice that it's worth listening, let's take a look at some of their arguments.
This coaching search and "process" was a failure because it didn't get Stoops, Meyer, Saban or Gruden.
You can eliminate Saban right away because he has zero ties to Notre Dame and is getting paid very well to have autonomous control over a football fiefdom in Tuscaloosa. Gruden is more interesting, but he's a pro coach and this time around, Swarbrick and company wanted someone established from the college ranks. Part of me thinks that caveat was added after Gruden had already signed the extension at ESPN and turned them down, but if not, I'm fine with that. I think Gruden would have been a great choice, but I think he was a riskier pick than Kelly, just because he hadn't worked with kids that young in a long, long while. Also, if you really wanted to make the case against Gruden, you could say "He won a Super Bowl with Tony Dungy's team in 2002, never won another playoff game after and collapsed so badly at the end of the 2008 season that the Tampa Bay management thought ‘You know what? I think we're better off with Raheem Morris.'" Lot of upside for Gruden and he was near the top of my wishlist, but I can understand avoiding another pro-to-college transition.
Stoops was the One That Got Away This Time this time, and depending on who you believe, it was everything from money to admission standards to ResLife that drove him away. I also have a working theory on another reason he didn't come, and it revolves around being paid four million dollars a year to continue coaching at a place where you've been for a decade, where your family is happy, where you have a natural recruiting base to work from and where you don't ever have to worry about the temperature high being in single digits in early December. Meyer has considerably stronger ties to Notre Dame, but it's a matter of record his wife really does not want to leave Gainesville for South Bend and he has a pretty great thing going down there as well.
You also might consider that those gentlemen coached against each other in the BCS title game last year, and in the history of college football, coaches simply don't do that. They don't leave a top ten program and go to another elite school just because they're offered more money or this great challenge. They just don't do it.
But we're Notre Dame! Plus there's a first for everything!
There is, and you'll also hear people talking about they went out and got Lou in 1985, and that was a slam dunk/home run hire. That the program needed a savior and the Notre Dame of the Good Old Days went out and got him. Here's an excerpt from the December 1985 Sports Illustrated story on Lou coming to Notre Dame:
But why was Lou Holtz chosen for the most storied and prestigious coaching job in America? After all, according to an SI source there were four other top candidates: former UCLA and Eagles coach Dick Vermeil, current UCLA coach Terry Donahue, Virginia's George Welsh and Maryland's Bobby Ross. But Holtz was the only one that Notre Dame talked to. And while the Irish head coach's salary is only about $75,000, radio and TV deals and other perks can run the pay up to almost $200,000 a year. However, the money really may not be that important; the football coaching job at Notre Dame isn't something to be bargained over-it's a prize, if tendered, to be accepted.
A strong case can be made for the notion that Holtz is simply the best coach working-and available. A handful of elite coaches probably wouldn't be tempted to change jobs at any price-Paterno, Shula, Schembechler.
Best coach working and available! Isn't that interesting, just like Brian Kelly most likely is (we'll talk about this in a bit). So the standards set up before the search were "If this process does not yield Stoops or Meyer, we are a weak-willed institution that does not value football anymore." People were adamantly anti-Kelly for a couple reasons. One is patently absurd, and goes a little something like:
Since Notre Dame could have hired Kelly last year, this past year is a waste and hiring him now confirms that.
This argument falls apart on so many levels. Since we don't have a time machine, the decision made in December of 2008 is sort of irrelevant because there's no way to change it. Just because I didn't try that delicious new Christmas ham recipe last holiday season and made something terribly disgusting instead doesn't mean that I shouldn't then make the delicious Christmas ham this year. How exactly is it Kelly's fault we didn't hire him then? If anything, we gave him another year to audition while giving a hard-working alum another year to prove himself. In that span, Brian Kelly went undefeated and Charlie Weis proved he wasn't a great college football head coach, making the decision this time around very, very easy. I obviously wish we had made the move last year to see Golden Tate go for two thousand yards receiving in Kelly's offense, but we didn't, and that shouldn't have any effect on this decision.
So 2008 was a wasted year? It was, and that's sad, but that doesn't change how we look ahead, nor is it any sort of black mark on Kelly.
Swarbrick should have been doing whatever it took to get Stoops or Meyer over the last year.
This is also crazy talk. Why would Bob Stoops or Urban Meyer talk to another school's athletic director when A) that school currently had a coach and B) they had jobs that required their full attention. Can you imagine if that leaked in the offseason, or better yet, before the Red River Shootout or Cocktail Party? I'm sure Stoops was really interested in helping to craft ResLife reform, but was just a little busy attempting to replace his All-American tight end and Heisman-winning quarterback.
Well, what you don't understand is that over the years, we could have had Stoops, and Meyer, and Gruden, and Saban, and the administration always screwed it up. Just trust me, I know.
This is where things get hazy, as you're attempting to argue against innuendo, rumors, ghosts and conspiracy theories. When every reply involves "I've got a source that really knows, I'm not sure if they're comfortable with me saying what I know, but just trust me, we could have had Bill Belichick this time around," how are you supposed to argue? You attempt to use reason, such as "Your baseline for calling it a failure is not achieving something that's never been done before," and they counter with "Well, it was so close to being done, but Notre Dame couldn't close the deal again."
At this point, you just have to let the crazies believe that they've won. There's nothing else to do. They so badly want to prove to the rest of their fringe friends that they love Notre Dame more than anyone else that they'll spout off garbage you can't possibly argue against, and you just have to accept that.
I don't know what The Process was, but if it was unable to get a top ten coach to leave their current situation and ended up getting the best coach available, then I'm more than happy with The Process. Maybe that means I'm a weak-willed fan who doesn't understand what Notre Dame used to be, but you know what? I'm okay with that. Considering I can't go back in a time machine and attend the school three decades earlier when men were men and people cared, I'll just accept that the Notre Dame I know is pretty great, regardless of how evil Monk, Jenkins, Swarbrick, the board of trustees and mysterious Powers That Be are. For being evil guys, they just hired a really good football coach, starting renovating the JACC, began building a beautiful new hockey arena, put up new science, law and engineering buildings and got a sitting United States president to deliver a commencement address. All schools should be so lucky to be as colossally giant failures as Notre Dame is under its current leadership.
ResLife is a giant problem that's hindering the future of Notre Dame.
This is true, but not just because of football. ResLife is a horrible entity for all Notre Dame students, and needs to be addressed. Weis said in his exit interview that it was his biggest problem, but ResLife didn't stop him from bringing in great recruiting class after great recruiting class, nor did it put an awful defensive scheme on the field every game. ResLife is one factor in the failings of Notre Dame football, but not the sole reason.
Considering how poorly the last coaching searches have gone, I refuse to believe Notre Dame exhausted every option to get a "Tier 1" guy. I refuse to give this administration the benefit of the doubt.
This is where we must move onto talking about Kelly, as there's no way you can argue with the detractors at this point. Swarbrick is not going to come out and say "You know what, we offered Stoops this, this and this and he still said no." Coaching searches don't work like that, especially when you've already hired your guy. Until some time has passed and those involved write their memoirs, we're just not going to know how close it was. If your secret sources tell you Notre Dame is broken forever, then by all means, stop following the team. However, don't attempt to rally people around your cause when you can only offer them rumor, innuendo and fact-less promises of failure.
Brian Kelly is the low-hanging fruit and anyone could have made that hire.
First off, who is to say that low-hanging fruit is not delicious and tasty? Kelly being hired was relatively simple to pull off- and we're just guessing that, perhaps they were considerably more difficult than imagined - because he was at a place with no football history, horrible facilities and a tiny stadium, and we were asking him to come on up north to one of the most storied programs in the land. The upgrade in everything, from the Gug to the players on his roster, will probably be enough to make Kelly shed a tear when he sees them. How much longer do you think Kelly was going to stay at Cincy, no matter who swooped in to hire him? Spend five minutes on a Michigan site and you'll quickly find a "Crap, I thought we could hire him to replace RichRod after next season." Kelly's situation was awful, while Meyer's and Stoops' were fantastic, which is why Notre Dame was able to get him and not one of the "Tier 1" guys.
Brian Kelly was clearly not the best coach available after all of the "Tier 1" guys and is a huge risk.
I will agree that there is risk to hiring Brian Kelly. There was a risk to hiring everyone not named Urban, Bob or Nick. But when you look at where all the current best coaches in the nation came from, save for Saban, there was risk involved.
(Saban to Alabama is a giant case of right place, right time and beautiful luck. If Saban signs Drew Brees instead of Culpepper, his pro experience is a lot more fun and he probably doesn't leave after two years. If Rich Rodriguez signs in mid-December instead of getting cold feet, then they don't wait around to get Saban. All the credit in the world to Alabama for snagging him, but there were a lot of pieces that had to fall for them to get him. If you want to blame the Irish Powers That Be for something, you should blame them for not realizing that Charlie was on the downward trend in 2006 - right before his team was headed to their second straight BCS bowl in as many seasons under him - and going after Saban before the Sugar Bowl.)
(That was a joke, but I think it would not be taken as such in certain areas.)
Pete Carroll was a NFL washout. Bob Stoops a coordinator. Jim Tressel was at Youngstown State. Urban Meyer had only been a head guy at the football Meccas of Bowling Green and Utah. The parallels between Meyer and Kelly are interesting, because while Meyer had more big program experience as an assistant, they both took over two programs not known for their success and won like crazy there before moving onto top-tier jobs. Kelly and Meyer and Mack Brown are as close to a sure thing as you get - long-time college coaches who won a lot of games before making the step up.
There are a few names out there that would have been on the same level of Kelly as Irish coach - Patterson, Peterson, Ferentz, Leach, even Richt - but none were clearly better, and to a lot of fans, some were clearly worse. Some of the names tossed out are laughable. Tedford? Huge preseason hype every year, gets absolutely smoked three times a season, no questions asked. Davis? Older, health issues and in his third season at North Carolina wasn't able to beat Virginia or NC State. A lot of these guys have relatively high floors but have established ceilings below a national championship. I'll take my chances with Kelly.
Look at the last two coaches to win big in the Big East and then move on. Petrino and Rodriguez are failures and they had gaudy conference records like Kelly did.
This is an amazingly dumb argument. First off, the Big East is not discernibly worse than the other BCS conferences. It's behind the PAC-10 and SEC, yes, but there is nothing - not bowl record, not non-conference record, not the quality of play when I watch them with my eyes compared to other conferences - that leads me to believe they're some watered down dwarf conference. They are clearly not the best conference, but if the only true proving grounds for Irish coaches are either the SEC or PAC-10, we are picking from a slim pool of candidates.
Now, onto the specific situations of the former Louisville and West Virginia coaches. I don't know a lot of Arkansas fans, but in his second year with the Razorbacks, Bobby P had them at 7-5 and was a whisker away from wins at Florida and LSU. This is in the aftermath of the Mustain and Williams transfers and the giant mess Houston Nutt left in his wake. Perhaps they are really upset with Petrino's work and I just need to visit Fayetteville more often, but playing in a competitive league, I thought Petrino did a really nice job this year and has the program on the upswing.
Rodriguez is a much more interesting case because while I enjoy all of his failures, I am very wary of his ability to turn it around. You'll notice that under RichRod, an offensive guy, the Michigan offense was actually okay this season, although it started to sputter as their 175-pound signal caller was beaten down as the year went on. Due to severe attrition in the wake of Lloyd Carr's retirement - some of it Rodriguez's fault - there were an odd amount of walk-ons getting significant time for a program the caliber of Michigan. I still think Rodriguez will turn it around once he gets his guys in place. Even if he does not and continues to be awful (let's pray, right?), Rodriguez's best success at West Virginia came with two other-worldly talents in Pat White and Steve Slaton. Kelly's quarterback position at Cincinnati is almost like a starting pitching rotation the way he was forced to go through them because of injuries. They are not the same coach, just because they both won a few Big East championships before making the jump.
Kelly has never had a "championship mentor" or spent time at a big-time program
It is a shame that Brian Kelly never went "As much fun as I'm having running my own program and scoring 60 points a game at Grand Valley State, I wonder if Joe Paterno or Bobby Bowden need a new linebackers coach. I really need to fill that gaping hole in my resume." Also, as far as "championship mentors" go, this is what you need to win college football championships in the 2010s:
a) Win as many games as you can. Preferably all of them , you might be okay with losing one, and if it's the football apocalypse, Les Miles will make the title game with two losses. Your schedule can be super diluted, like Texas 2009, and no one will care as long as you have the media behind you, which you get by:
b) Being a big-name program with a storied history.
That's basically it. Considering Brian Kelly is really good at winning football games, he should handle qualification A pretty well. And he now coaches at the University of Notre Dame, so that takes care of B. It looks like he is now qualified to play for and potentially win a national championship.
There is a very slim chance that Kelly pulls a Billy Gillispie and is just eaten alive by this situation. Anything is possible, but I would bet heavily against it. I'm also not concerned that he's never recruited at a level like this before. Charlie Weis had never recruited at all and he was awesome at it. Hard work + winning + pitching Notre Dame = big-time recruits. Half the time Weis was only doing two of those three things and he still was bringing in five-star guys. Kelly had already started to improve the recruiting at Cincinnati (slowly, but surely) and when you factor in his political background and what every profile says about his personality and salesmanship, I think the Irish are going to be okay in the recruiting business.
This was a fantastic hire, and whatever the means were, I'm very happy with the end. I think Notre Dame fans should be very happy with this hire, and if they're not, I'd love to see any sort of concrete reasoning against it that doesn't involve whispers and subterfuge.
Welcome, Coach Kelly. We're very glad to have you.
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65 comments
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Comments
Great read
And an excellent point about the Big East. Somehow they dominate in bowls every year, and show an above-average record against teams from other BCS conferences and they get no respect. In fact, they actually get less than no respect. They get bashed. There is good football being played in the Big East every Saturday and people just refuse to believe it. Top to bottom they are a better conference then the Big 12, Big Ten (11?), and the ACC as you said.
B-B-B-Byrd Byrd Byrd, Byrd is the Wyrd!"
by willgarr15 on Dec 11, 2009 3:24 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Cheers.
This’ll make them shut up. Well. Who needs logic, anyway.
by Laskey on Dec 11, 2009 3:41 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Good Post, BUT
I think most people would agree that Brian Kelly is a pretty good hire. There were, at most, 5 guys that you could say, without a doubt, would have been better hires. All other options would require a discussion.
With that being said, you seem to have a problem separating The Process and The Result. While many people are happy with The Result, I don’t think you said anything that would convince someone to change their mind about The Process being a failure. The overlying theme of your post is summed up well near the end, “This was a fantastic hire, and whatever the means were, I’m very happy with the end.” Maybe The Process was bad, maybe it was good, but it got me Brian Kelly so that is fine by me. This is the exact thing that people are angry about.
The Process served to find a coach that would be acceptable to the majority of ND fans while furthering the administration’s mission. The Process, in short, should have been to vet as many candidates as possible, find out what ND needed to do to accommodate them, and then, if possible, do those things. Maybe this evaluation happened. Maybe it didn’t. People are sick of giving ND the benefit of the doubt. Furthermore, they have demonstrated a continuing pattern of behavior detrimental to the football program and, more importantly, the things that make ND special.
I understand that you are happy with Brian Kelly. That is fine. But don’t say that The Process was a success because it resulted in the hire. There is more to The Process than Brian Kelly and until it changes things will only get worse.
by djta on Dec 11, 2009 6:09 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree, but to reiterate: We know nothing about the process
No one but Jack and Jenkins (and maybe their secretaries) knows anything about the process. Since we know nothing about the process, and we got a great result, only a pessimisstic person would then go one to assume that we succeeded in spite of ourselves (just as only an optimistic person would assume that we succeeded because of the process).
People are angry because they did not know what was going on. However, it would have been detrimental to the process if these people did know what was actually happening. I would postulate that the lack of descretion in previous hiring processes CONTRIBUTED to their failure.
People who are mad about the process are either:
1. Transferring their anger about the result (which CW does a great job of showing to be irrational).
2. Pissed because they spent 10 days flipping their s*** everytime they heard a new rumor; because they felt out of the loop.
Conversely, people who are happy about the process are most likely transferring their happiness about the result.
Bottom line: no one knew Jack besides Jack. Complaining or praising the process is a waste of time.
by mhb on Dec 11, 2009 6:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A difference in assumptions
Most people who have been at ND for the last 15 years would argue that most of the administrative changes that have been made have been for the worse. You can start with little things such as moving SYRs out of the dorms to ResLife matters. It is not simply pessimistic. It is looking at a body of work and assessing a pattern of behavior. You assume The Process was fine because of the result. However, a failed process can still produce a favorable result, even this specific one. When looking at the University’s body of work, recent history suggests failed processes. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that The Process was not conducted properly until demonstrated otherwise. Furthermore, your view is probably illogical and overly optimistic.
I don’t know who is angry about what, but I do know that a lot of people are disappointed in the state and trend of the university. I am not sure that it has ANYTHING (randomly capitalized word) to do with their knowledge in this situation. Their lack of knowledge prevents an accurate assessment of The Process for sure, but it does not undermine any assumptions or change the state of affairs.
1. false
2. false
You are taking this process thing in an even worse context than CW did in his post. The complaints about The Process are about far more than a football coach. The Process is, presumably, representative of everything that is wrong with the University.
Please stop making this about a single issue.
by djta on Dec 11, 2009 10:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The people complaining about The Process complain about everything,
and therefore have no credibility. They have complained about playing in the Hawaii Bowl, not using the fullback enough, spread offenses in general and going for it on fourth down ever, no matter how much the numbers say you should. Why should I believe their whining now? Also, two points:
1) Furthermore, they have demonstrated a continuing pattern of behavior detrimental to the football program and, more importantly, the things that make ND special.
Uh, like what? Kevin White and Monk Malloy are gone. Swarbrick and Jenkins just completed a quick, quiet, efficient hire of a great football coach.
2) There is more to The Process than Brian Kelly and until it changes things will only get worse.
What does that mean? What will get worse? I don’t get it.
http://www.rakesofmallow.com
by CW on Dec 11, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Being overly critical doesn't make your complaints incorrect.
You may find them annoying. You can even presume that they are incorrect until listening to them. But after listening to what they have to say, you have to evaluate the opinion independently. Creating logical, thoughtful arguments does not necessarily require credibility. You should believe their criticisms because once you sit down and evaluate them, they make sense.
1) Western Michigan. ResLife.
2) The negative trend that the University has been under. I would call it pussification. I can make a whole post of bad changes at ND over the last 20 years if you would like. I could also narrow it to specific time frames if you would like as well.
by djta on Dec 11, 2009 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would love an entire post of all the terrible things wrong at Notre Dame. I’m not sure what sort of fantasyland you or some of those so upset with the administration live in, but no where is perfect, and I’m sure that every single other school also has issues. Overall, I think Notre Dame has far more pluses than minuses.
“You should believe their criticisms because once you sit down and evaluate them, they make sense.”
No they don’t. They are poking at smoke and mirrors. They don’t know how the process went, I don’t know how the process went, but I do know that unless Saban, Meyer or Stoops were hired, they weren’t going to be happy. That was the standard from the beginning, and it was silly.
http://www.rakesofmallow.com
by CW on Dec 12, 2009 10:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe that is true for some people
There are certainly some who unwaveringly based the success of The Process on results. While the hiring of one of those guys would most likely suggest a successful The Process, the failure to hire one of them does not constitute failure. Therefore, tying up The Process in results is a bit of a fallacy.
Where are the smoke and mirrors you are referring to? I am pointing to a pattern of behavior that has existed for over 15 years.
I agree that ND has more pluses than minuses, but the pluses continue to dwindle and the minuses continue to grow. Therein lies the problem. There is a downward trend with little visible effort to change it.
Your attitude demonstrates great naivety and perhaps some apathy as well. Yes ND is a great place, and you are fine with that. Some things change and you look at other schools and say, well ok we are still better than them. All the while things slowly get taken away. The quality of ND slowly erodes. But you can still look to the school next to you and say we are better than you and that’s fine by me. You should ask more from your school as a fan and, more importantly, an alum. ND is a dying star. If we are not careful it might disappear.
Also, I will work on a compilation of changes made at the University over the last 15-20 years, both good and bad, and post later in the weekend.
by djta on Dec 12, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"ND is a dying star"
Stop it. Please. Unless this is satire, at which point it’s amazing, and please, keep going.
http://www.rakesofmallow.com
by CW on Dec 12, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A Modest Proposal
By Swift? Is that satire? If it is, then yes I am using satire. I am being funny to make a serious point.
by djta on Dec 12, 2009 4:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
what about the process was a failure?
the pipe dream candidates (Meyer, Stoops) said no. the pro-level guys (Gruden, etc.) were never seriously considered, as they shouldn’t have been. the NFL and college football is apples and oranges (see: Davis, Butch and Saban, Nick).
i like the way The Process went. the press was so ga-ga over Stoops that for the whole first week after Weis was fired, that’s all anyone was talking about. Plus, when the Kelly hire appeared imminent, suddenly the Edsall rumor throws everyone off the scent. Finally, things are wrapped up with a nice little bow before the conclusion of week #2.
most objective observers have said that it was one of the better ran coaching searches by a major college program that they had ever seen. i don’t really see what the problem is.
by SBakerTheTouchdownMaker on Dec 11, 2009 10:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pipe Dream Candidates: we don’t know what happened with them. You are making assumptions.
How did The Process go? We don’t know anything about it. Those rumors were probably started by the coaches respective agents in order to increase their client’s pay. There is no evidence that ND talked to either of them.
The problem is that ND tried to find someone that would do the least amount of harm. People would be satisfied with Kelly as coach. Kelly will keep the program good enough and allow the University to pursue its own endeavors.
by djta on Dec 11, 2009 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
i hear where you're coming from
and i think i get your point. but, as you said “We don’t know anything about it (The Process).” none of us know the inner-workings of The Process or have a tap on Swarbrick’s office/cell phones, so we have no idea how this search was conducted.
since none of us know what truly went on then it’s silly to either praise (like CW did) or criticize (like you did) The Process at all.
by SBakerTheTouchdownMaker on Dec 12, 2009 9:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Assumptions
I agree that it is based on assumptions, or, as CW so eloquently stated, “innuendo, rumors, ghosts and conspiracy theories.” However, as a I stated above, these assumptions are based on years of consistent behavior. It is not as if someone woke up one morning and decided to assume the worst in the ND administration. I have seen the University fail repeatedly in the past. Therefore, it is reasonable to assume that they have failed now.
by djta on Dec 12, 2009 12:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But why would you hold this AD accountable
for the failures of his predecessors
The Original member of the Ndamukong Suh bandwagon
by averagegatsby on Dec 12, 2009 12:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
just because something happened one way in the past
does not mean it will happen the same way in the present, that is the fatal flaw in your “thinking”. BTW, how many head football coach searches has Swarbrick conducted at ND before this? None, so to assume he will “fail” as you claim otherADs have failed is baseless.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 12, 2009 12:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
why is thinking in quotes?
There is no flaw in my rationale. It is based on an assumption that the University of Notre Dame is operating in the interests of fulfilling its own agenda and not in the best interest of the football team.
You are correct that the past does not set the future, but the past does suggest that the future will be the same or similar. You are choosing to make an assumption without basis. My assumption is based in fact. The fact that ND has failed, on many fronts, in the past. There is no indication that they have improved their methods. Your assumption is based on the hopeful idea that Swarbrick’s pressence somehow changes the acts of all other people in the ND administration. I, instead, recognize the breadth of the decisionmakers and note that Swarbrick is just one of many people involved in The Process.
If the AD’s only job was to hire football coaches then your point would be valid. Alternatively, if the AD was the sole individual responsible for all sports or even football coaching decisions that were made, then your point would be valid. However, neither of these are true. Swarbrick is just a cog in the machine. He was here for a short time to boost his resume before moving on.
Also, I did not claim that an other ADs have failed. I stated that the ND administration has repeatedly made poor decisions with respect to all matters concerning the University and is the basis for my assumption. You have yet to provide any evidence otherwise. Your sole attempt was to point to Swarbrick’s lack of a track record. Lacking something is not evidence of the presence of another.
by djta on Dec 12, 2009 2:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
the complaints about process
seem not be based on anything concrete, just djta’s feelings and general issues with the football program at ND since Holtz. I have no doubt djta has no idea what process Swarbrick used to hire Kelly.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 12, 2009 12:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Great analysis
Please see my posts above.
I clearly stated that I was not privy to the details of The Process. When there is lack of knowledge, then there must assumptions. My assumptions are based in logic and reason. Feel free to explain your assumptions, because, as I stated above, they seem to be illogical.
by djta on Dec 12, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
your complaints are not based on facts, logic or reason
they are based on assumptions, nuff said.
Let it go, man, you’re embarrassing yourself.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 12, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you two capable of debate with out getting personal?
The Original member of the Ndamukong Suh bandwagon
by averagegatsby on Dec 12, 2009 12:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are not in any position to be critical gatsby
To take anyone else to task for getting personal is rank hypocrisy on your part. Go back and read your own posting history, lots of “getting personal” to be found.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 12, 2009 12:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
as opposed to everyone of your posts?
The Original member of the Ndamukong Suh bandwagon
by averagegatsby on Dec 12, 2009 1:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
getting personal gatsby?
I guess you are one of those do as I say not as I do types.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 12, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Its like arguing with a child.
If you don’t know the difference between debate and personal attack then this going to go nowhere.
The Original member of the Ndamukong Suh bandwagon
by averagegatsby on Dec 12, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I do know the difference
and I admit to both, unlike you who has this fantasy that you are above personal attack. You do not shrink from personal attack, in fact you revel in it, yet you want people to believe you don’t. Sorry, that dog doesn’t hunt.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 12, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Um what?
This coming from the individual who just had to post “dont feed the troll” when I was having a nice civil discussion about head coaching candidates. Not once did that get even remotely heated, but you just had to put in your 2 cents by adding nothing.
I have no idea where you get this idea that I am such a terrible person, I rarely initiate an attack, but occasionally do retaliate, after all I am human. However you always seem to belittle, why do you get off as being such a dick… Guess its easy in the confines of anonymity though.
The Original member of the Ndamukong Suh bandwagon
by averagegatsby on Dec 12, 2009 2:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ignore that buffoon
he has backtracked on everything he’s ever said. He’s all over the place. And, I would not be surprised if it is just some monkey typing on a keyboard.
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
by StoopsMyAss on Dec 13, 2009 1:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah at this point...
In convinced his only goal is to be an ass.
You really should get professional help. Your obsession with ND football is not healthy. ---Dr. lookingdeadred
by averagegatsby on Dec 13, 2009 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the backup Gatsby
However, unlike you, I (and it seems like Red, too) am not holier than life. I enjoy making fun of people for saying dumb shit and I get pleasure out of seeing their feelings hurt. As a result, I am more than capable of handling some meaningless banter about sports-related opinions.
I would have you note, though, that I have adhered to your stringent standards throughout this discussion and have used no personal attacks. I hope that you can appreciate my efforts at change.
by djta on Dec 12, 2009 2:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There is a difference between attacking and retaliation
But fine, I will no longer retaliate.
By the way, real class move taking pleasure in hurting others, pretty easy to do when you dont actually have to worry about being swung at.
The Original member of the Ndamukong Suh bandwagon
by averagegatsby on Dec 12, 2009 4:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Ha. ok
I was kidding Gatsby. Take it easy. Though I guarantee I could kick your ass.
On a serious note, there has been limited/no attacking on my part since your lecture last week. You should be proud.
by djta on Dec 12, 2009 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps...
And I actually did notice that (for which I am actually now being prideful of)… What I dont understand is that (for the most part) everyone who takes time out of their day to post a comment here does so because of a shared love of the University of Notre Dame. If all of us were to meet at Notre Dame stadium this hostility would not exist.
The fact that things get heated is because in essence we all want the same thing, and it can be easy to forget that. Obviously I have a lacking social life which is evident by the absolutely absurd amount of posts I make throughout the SBnation, some of the other blogs have tens of thousands of visitors a day with hundreds of posts a day but they for the most part stay pretty civil.
I just find it odd that there can be as much vitriol here as on the more trafficked SBnation sites, even though it has a fraction of the following.
But hey Congrats on your new found Zen.
And now I am as excited for the next football season as any season I have watched, and this one isn’t even over yet.
You really should get professional help. Your obsession with ND football is not healthy. ---Dr. lookingdeadred
by averagegatsby on Dec 12, 2009 4:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sweet signature
I think that the “shared love of the University of Notre Dame” is the exact reason why things get so heated here. People are so passionate. Passion breeds anger. Not a great thing, but not a terrible thing either.
Also, I don’t things are nearly as heated as you make them out to be.
Oh and go NW Mo St! Sorry Chuck Martin.
by djta on Dec 12, 2009 6:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thats probably true too..
Kind of like how my sarcasm and snark gets taken a little to seriously, it happens though.
You really should get professional help. Your obsession with ND football is not healthy. ---Dr. lookingdeadred
by averagegatsby on Dec 12, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Is this sopmeone over the age of 13?
"I think it's safe to say our concerns are many." -- Kirk Ferentz
by StoopsMyAss on Dec 13, 2009 1:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not really
One who complains about personal attacks and then indulges in them is a hypocrite. You can’t have it both ways.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 13, 2009 1:56 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Both opinions are based on assumptions
I have clearly stated as much. The difference is my assumptions are based on historical trends and facts. I am still trying to discover what your assumption is based upon. As far as I can tell, it is rooted in a naive hope that Swarbrick will do things differently than the current administration has done in the past. As one piece of evidence against this, look at his singe biggest football decision to date—WMU. Also, see his desire to continue the 7-4-1 model.
Believe it or not, assumptions are an essential part of most every logical argument. The key then becomes what assumptions are more reasonable and how they are used to created the argument. I see no reason for your assumptions or reason to refute mine.
I appreciate your concern, but belittling your argument does not make me feel particularly embarrassed.
by djta on Dec 12, 2009 2:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
pointing out the flaws in an argument
is nothing to apologize for. Too bad you were not up to the task. You cherry pick the facts upon which to base your assumption, that is not the sign of a logical assumption. This is Swarbrick’s decision, that much is clear, yet you want to assume that he will make the same mistakes as others before him. That is a baseless assumption.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 13, 2009 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What is your assumption based on?
I have stated what mine is based on. You choose not to read that part. I get it. What facts am I not including in my analysis?
How do you know this is Swarbrick’s decision? It is not clear to me.
by djta on Dec 13, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That Swarbrick is not those other guys
so assuming he will repeat their mistakes is a unjustified. I prefer to judge a person on what he actually does, not on what others who held their position did before him.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 14, 2009 9:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What has Swarbrick done?
I can name one thing right of the top of my head to counter your joy from the Brian Kelly hire: Western Michigan. Some would argue that he has screwed up the JACC renovations pretty good, too.
Your assumption still fails because you are suggesting that The Process involved one individual, Jack Swarbrick. However, there are many other individuals in the ND administration that are involved in The Process who have been a part of coaching decisions and other failed ND decisions in the past.
You are choosing to ignore this aspect and that is unjustified. I am considering the track record of all those involved in the decision making process upon reaching my assumptions.
by djta on Dec 14, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What is ResLife? This is the first Im hearing of it...
And I really like the Kelly hire, the more I think about it, the more I look at his body of work the more I like the guy. And his press conference was fantastic.
And on top that, I really don’t think that there was a better coach available… I dont see any reason why Stoops would leave OU, and at this point Im not sure if I want Meyer, he has made it so abundantly clear that he doesn’t want to coach at ND and USED ND to get his current job. To be honest I would much rather beat him than win with him.
The Original member of the Ndamukong Suh bandwagon
by averagegatsby on Dec 11, 2009 6:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I really like Kelly, too
He is certainly a risk, but I am pretty hopeful.
I didn’t think his press conference was great. There were some great moments, but it was pretty boring. It was not nearly as exciting as Weis’ first. But, then again, I am happy it wasn’t. Kelly did a great job of not setting himself up for failure or unnecessary criticism in the future. I thought he played it all pretty well.
ResLife is Residential Life and Housing. It is the disciplinary arm of the University. The guys that run it have free reign to punish people as they wish.
by djta on Dec 11, 2009 10:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well...
I just really like how Kelly came in and was preaching hard work and dedication.
The Original member of the Ndamukong Suh bandwagon
by averagegatsby on Dec 11, 2009 11:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
to djta
you are dead wrong when you say that there are “five other coaches out there that are better than brian kelly”. There is not one coach out there that it better than this guy.
Look at this way: Anybody can win at florida and oklahoma. Not everybody can win at Cincinnati.
I know this because I live in cincinnati, and nobody has ever won at cincinnati. ever. to put it in perspective, UC has lost more football games than it has won over its long existance as a football program. We dont get attention, we dont get recruits, and we sure as hell dont win football games. But kelly came here, picked up a team that hadnt won squat…ever, that had run a prostyle offense for…ever, and installed the spread instantly and went 34-6 with two bcs bowls in that span. Prior to kelly, we had never finished ranked in the top 25. under kelly, we have never finished NOT ranked in the top 25. In fact, as of right now, we are number 3.
Believe me when I say that he is the best, and I’ll be damned if yall lose a single game next year.
by cincyvol6198 on Dec 11, 2009 10:08 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Settle down big guy
If you are going to quote me, then you damn well better get it right. I said, “There were, at most, 5 guys that you could say, without a doubt, would have been better hires.” That was a compliment to my coach. Settle.
Florida coaches that cannot win:
Ron Zook
Galen Hall
Doug Dickey
Bob Woodruff
Oklahoma coaches that cannot win:
Gary Gibbs
Howard Schnellenberger
John Blake
Gomer Jones
Chuck Fairbanks
Jim Mackenzie
Sid Gillman won a few games. Cinci has 14 players in the NFL (not all were Kelly guys). Dantonio won a few games, too. He is a good coach, but I think you are taking it a little far.
I think you might be darned.
by djta on Dec 11, 2009 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here is something to think about when thinking about the Kelly hire...
If they didn’t add that 1 sec to the Texas Nebraska game then Texas doesn’t win and Cincy goes to the BCS championship game… And if that were to happen, more than likely Kelly never even entertains the idea of leaving Cincy till after the bowl game.
The Original member of the Ndamukong Suh bandwagon
by averagegatsby on Dec 12, 2009 12:23 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I couldn’t agree more on pretty much everything you said. I hate to agree with everything you said, but you pretty much hit the nail on the head with this one. Quite simply, the BoardOps at NDNation got served. Now they’ve basically done an about face and are in love with Brian Kelly—whose name is not Stoops or Meyer. Those guys are the Rush Limbaugh of ND football bloggerdom. Ridiculous.
As for anyone who complains about the current administration, I would just ask them if they’ve been on campus recently. You said it—new science, performing arts and law buildings, new sports facilities, new off campus eateries and living within walking distance of campus. I think they’ve done some remarkable things.
The only area where there is perhaps some room for improvement is ResLife. As someone who had his run ins with ResLife, I now hold myself to a higher standard as a result. Their punishments are draconian and basically unappealable, but you know or should know that going in. It’s always been a strict place. You play by ND’s rules or you don’t play. Still, I know people who were absolutely crucified solely as the result of “wrong place, wrong time” situations.
Keep up the great work. This is why I prefer the indepent-mindedness of ND football bloggers to the punditry of NDNation.
Clay
by ClayC on Dec 14, 2009 11:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
No offense
I am assuming you are a current or recent student.
You represent the type of personality shift that many ND fans (of the University not just the football team) are angry about. You see all the shiny new things, but ignore the underlying problems. The University is much more concerned with improving their rankings in Newsweek and conforming to aspirational peers than supporting and upholding the unique values and traditions that have made ND special over the years. They shield your eyes new facilities and fancy stores to make everything seem just fine.
Also, I am confused about this about face you speak of. I am pretty sure I have seen most people state that they will reserve judgment until Brian Kelly produces some results on the field. Additionally, as I have tried to make clear above, most people are not and never were upset about the Brian Kelly hire. People are upset about why and how he was hired. There is a difference.
Finally, there is no reason why people should have to play by ResLife’s rules. It is not as though they are some grand institution that has been running ND for generations. Their controlling power is a recent phenomenon, characteristic of the current and previous administrations. ND has not always been a strict place in this sense. It is a conservative Catholic institution for sure, but has not always been an irrationally heavy-handed one. I would hope people would feel a little more passionate about this and not simply accept things as is.
by djta on Dec 14, 2009 12:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not that I am agreeing or disagreeing with what you say...
Because I dont know enough about the issues you bring up. And I dont exactly want to say you are arguing for the sake of arguing but it kind of seems that way. Where exactly are you going with this?
And what exactly is your stance on the Kelly hire? I personally like the hire, judging by his resume of success, or at least the relativity of his success he seems to be a very good football coach.
You really should get professional help. Your obsession with ND football is not healthy. ---Dr. lookingdeadred
by averagegatsby on Dec 14, 2009 1:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Arguing against groupthink
People in groups tend to think alike. That is part of the reason they are a part of the group in the first place.
Initially, CW presented an argument against the people that were against the Kelly hire and The Process. In doing so, he incorrectly framed the argument he was arguing against. While I think the argument against The Process has some merited points, I think it fails on element of proof. The fallacy of the argument is that there is no way to prove that The Process was a success. That being said, it is not fair of others to attack the argument based on their misinterpretation of it. I was just trying to escalate my understanding by driving towards the heart of both sides of the issue.
In short, I like the Kelly hire. He was probably the best available candidate available. Guys that I would have had before him include Stoops, Meyer, and Gruden. I believe that Stoops and Meyer were contacted and for whatever reason didn’t work out. I initially thought Gruden was ignored, but it seems that ND and Dungy at least exchanged phone calls regarding the opening, therefore I tend to believe that Gruden was contacted as well. Then there are a number of pie in the sky types that I would have preferred, such as Mike Shanahan, Mike Holmgren, and Bill Cowher. I like Kelly over guys like Davis, Tedford, and Ferentz. I think they all have ceilings and we have seen them. We have not seen Kelly’s ceiling. There are a few guys I think could have been hired over Kelly and I would have been fine with them. The list includes Peterson and Patterson. Possibly guys like Riley and Chip Kelly, but I don’t think so. I never made a list or anything like that.
Kelly is a bit of a risk. There is certainly a change in going from Cincinnati to ND. I hope that it is not as shocking as going for high school to college as a student, but I see some similarities. I think we are talking about completely different cultures and different pressures associated with the job. In my extremely brief introduction to Kelly as a person, he seems like he has to fortuity to handle it. I am not worried about him recruiting. I am a little worried about his X’s and O’s, but he’ll be fine. I am most concerned about his ability to teach under a microscope and handle the criticism that will undoubtedly come his way. Can he stay true to himself and not change what has made him successful over the year even in this environment? He is a guy the players wanted. He is a guy that recruits know. He is that can get others excited.
One of my biggest problems with Weis was his emotionless attitude, at least outwardly. Football, more than any other sport, is about using the tools you have in the best way possible. So much of the game is mental. Talent, to a certain extent, can be equalized through an extraordinary, centralized effort. I like that Kelly speaks of passion. I think that vibe will carry through the players and into the fanbase, or at least I hope it does. I hope Kelly finds a way to convince ND stadium to be a scary place to play.
by djta on Dec 14, 2009 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't really have a problem with any of that...
And I agree with most of the things. I think as long as Kelly doesn’t come in and upset the apple cart like Rich Rod did in Michigan that he will almost get a pass for the first season, especially if they are competitive, I don’t think this is going to be an issue because ND is a far more talented team than the one Rich Rod took over.
We’ve had our disagreements about the Pro Coaches, and one guy who you didn’t mention who I think has the potential to be a phenomenal college coach is Herm Edwards. In a lot of ways he reminds me of Pete Carrol. And I think Herm has the potential to be a lights out recruiter, I can’t imagine many guys being able to go into a kids house and convince a parent that their kid will be in good hands better than him.
You really should get professional help. Your obsession with ND football is not healthy. ---Dr. lookingdeadred
by averagegatsby on Dec 14, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Herm Edwards?
I just threw up in my mouth.
I think the comparisons between Rich Rodriquez and Brian Kelly should begin and end with their affiliation with the Big East Conference.
by djta on Dec 14, 2009 6:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hear me out...
Dont get me wrong, this is coming from a Chiefs fan, you would have to talk me off the ledge if the were hired by the Irish… But he did garner some buzz for the KU job. And here is why I think he should at least be considered. First off he failed as a coach for being conservative and expecting paid players to take their job more seriously. But with college its not a stretch to assume that he would have a little more controlled environment. Regardless of what you think of him as a coach, you really can’t say anything bad about him as a Human, I actually ran into him in the Kansas City airport once, and just told him how much I love the Chiefs, and how I thought he was going to get things turned around (which was bullshit I was just trying to be a nice guy and get a hand shake out of the deal), his response was a very nice and sincere… I hate the guy as a pro-coach but love him as a human, which I think will translate very well at the college level, I know if I had a kid there isn’t a coach in the country who I would trust more to develop them as a human. Herms players loved him, and Petes players love him. With Pete in USC he doesn’t run anything complicated, everyone knows what they are going to do, but he has done most of his winning on the backs of athletically superior teams. Now Im not saying Herm’s first college gig should have been ND, but if he could gets a shot at it I really do believe he will do well, and for his sake I really do wish him the best.
Lastly my intention was more a jab at Michigan and their fans, and that if Kelly does at least fairly well he shouldn’t have the problem that Rich Rod had. I am reveling in his struggles, I mean I liked the guy at West Va, and really thought he would have Michigan better than they are, thankfully they are kind of a trainwreck, and if he doesn’t get shit turned around and turned around quickly, Michigan is going to be looking for another coach… And then we may have to be scared about Harbaugh.
You really should get professional help. Your obsession with ND football is not healthy. ---Dr. lookingdeadred
by averagegatsby on Dec 14, 2009 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tyrone Willingham is a good human, too
Maybe he would be good. Maybe he wouldn’t. I don’t know. But I don’t like the NFL teams he has coached. I cannot evaluate your comparisons to Pete so I will differ to you.
Point taken.
by djta on Dec 14, 2009 7:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Anyone they hired would be a "bit of a risk"
Kelly seems to come with fewer risks than his competitors, hence he got offered the job. As for the Process, you are just making assumptions not based in fact. You decry groupthink, yet you are indulging in the pessimist groupthink of a growing number of ND fans.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 14, 2009 4:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why don't you respond to relevant posts?
What is your understanding of the word risk? For me it means the chance of failing relative to the chance of succeeding, or the variances in the expected rate of return. Some other coaching options, for example Tedford and Ferentz, are not risky. They have coached at top-level programs for an extended period of time and won at an above-average level. They are far less likely to fail at ND, but also far less likely to win a NC. In contrast, Kelly has had far less time at a top program and hasn’t spent a long time at one of them. As a result, it is less known how he will fair at ND. Ergo more risky.
I have stated what my assumptions are based on numerous times, which of them is not based in fact?
I have challenged you to state what your assumptions are based on. You have failed to properly respond. Please see the discussion of that topic above and feel free to respond to my last post there.
I don’t know how someone decries groupthink, but I was just answer Gatsby’s question. I didn’t want this group of posters to become like a certain other group where everyone just jumps aboard the train and keeps saying the same shit over and over without even knowing what it means. I was properly presenting the argument that CW was trying to argue against.
by djta on Dec 14, 2009 7:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
this is getting tedious
This will be my last response in this thread, so feel free to have the last word.
Any new hire is a risk, some may be less risky than others, but all come with risk. Just because they succeeded in one school does not guarantee success at ND, hence the risk factor. You mention Tedford specifically. There are many who think the program at Cal would be better off with a new coach as he has failed to win a Pac 10 title. Ferentz would be a risk, too. Yes, he has had some measure of success but there is no guarantee that he would hold up under the more intense spotlight of being the HC at ND. Personally I think Ferentz would never take the job at ND because he does not want the pressure (and not because he loathes pep rallies). The Iowa job is a lot less pressure-packed. If he competes for a Big 10 title once or twice a decade, Iowa fans are okay. They do not expect a national championship, and that remains the standard for ND coaches. As for the relative risk of Kelly, you claim he is more risky because he has less experience at the major college level. True enough, but you fail to account for the possibility that Kelly might be a much better coach than your so-called less risky coaches like Tedford and Ferentz. If he is a markedly better coach, his inexperience is less a factor. Both pete Carroll and Charlie Weis came from assistant jobs at the NFL level to major college programs. Neither had college head coaching experience, making each a risky pick, so why did Carroll succeed while Weis failed? Carroll succeeded because he is a talented head coach, while Weis was not. Experience is an important factor but it is not the only or even the most important factor.
As for groupthink, as I said you decry it but also engage in it. Your assumptions that Swarbrick/ND will screw up this hire because previous hires turned out bad is an example of groupthink of a type that is becoming more and more common in the world of ND backers, the uber pessimists.
I always turn to the sports section first. The sports page records people's accomplishments; the front page has nothing but man's failures.
~Earl Warren
by lookingdeadred on Dec 15, 2009 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your argument is all over the place. What happened to you talking about assmptions?
I do not fail to account for the fact that he might be a better coach. That is exactly my point. He has a chance for a higher return or a bigger loss. That is risk, my friend.
With respect to group think, I was speaking specifically of this site. I am the only person that seems to be supporting this type of view. That was my main purpose, to present and alternative position. I am sorry you cannot understand that.
I await your reply regarding assumptions…
by djta on Dec 15, 2009 4:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Any domer who doesn't think Kelly is an excellent hire
is an idiot and does not know college football. Now, if Michigan can just get Harbaugh we can have a real rivalry again.
by Chicago Wolverine on Dec 14, 2009 11:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I don't think its a matter of being an idiot...
But more of having the bar set too high and going by past success, instead of potential success. I would imagine most who don’t like the move, or doing so in a knee jerk reaction.
You really should get professional help. Your obsession with ND football is not healthy. ---Dr. lookingdeadred
by averagegatsby on Dec 14, 2009 11:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don’t think you will find many people claiming this is a bad hire. Most people like it, love it, or are in wait and see mode. I’d rather just kick the shit out of you every year.
by djta on Dec 15, 2009 12:03 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

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